#duraspace IRC Log


IRC Log for 2018-02-28

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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[6:42] * Topic is 'Welcome to DuraSpace IRC. This channel is used for formal meetings and is logged - http://irclogs.duraspace.org/'
[6:42] * Set by tdonohue on Thu Sep 15 17:49:38 UTC 2016
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[12:57] <DSpaceSlackBot> <matheus_silva> Hello <here>, I want to implement controlled vocabularies in the input field, but I would like to know if anyone has already done this? thank's
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[19:58] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> (Late) Reminder that our DevMtg starts shortly here. Agenda is at: https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/DSPACE/DevMtg+2018-02-28
[19:58] <kompewter> [ DevMtg 2018-02-28 - DSpace - DuraSpace Wiki ] - https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/DSPACE/DevMtg+2018-02-28
[20:00] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> <here>: it's DSpace DevMtg time. Let's start off with our usual brief roll-call, to see who's here & attending today
[20:00] <DSpaceSlackBot> <mwood> Yo!
[20:00] <DSpaceSlackBot> <terrywbrady> here
[20:01] <DSpaceSlackBot> <jcreel256> hi there
[20:02] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> Sounds like we have a small quorum, which is good. I see quite a few folks "active" in Slack, so we may have some others who are listening and/or joining shortly
[20:02] <DSpaceSlackBot> <jsavell-tamu> (listening quietly)
[20:03] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> So, to kick off with usual reminders. DSpace 7 meeting is tomorrow (15UTC).
[20:03] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> We had our first DSpace Dev Show & Tell Meeting yesterday. If you missed it, notes / video recording available at: https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/DSPACE/DSpace+on+AWS%2C+Janitor+and+DSpace+-+Feb+27%2C+2018+at+1600UTC
[20:03] <kompewter> [ DSpace on AWS, Janitor and DSpace - Feb 27, 2018 at 1600UTC - DSpace - DuraSpace Wiki ] - https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/DSPACE/DSpace+on+AWS%2C+Janitor+and+DSpace+-+Feb+27%2C+2018+at+1600UTC
[20:04] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> Last week was also the latest DSpace Entities Working Group (entities-wg in Slack) meeting. Notes/recording at https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/DSPACE/2018-02-23+DSpace+Entities+WG+Meeting+Notes (And more on this topic a bit later in agenda)
[20:04] <kompewter> [ 2018-02-23 DSpace Entities WG Meeting Notes - DSpace - DuraSpace Wiki ] - https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/DSPACE/2018-02-23+DSpace+Entities+WG+Meeting+Notes
[20:04] <DSpaceSlackBot> <terrywbrady> Tim gave an awesome overview of DSpace on AWS. It was very helpful to me.
[20:05] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> Glad it went well. It wasn't so much AWS as "a simple way of deploying DSpace (all on one server) in the Cloud". Not much was truly AWS specific, but it did/does use AWS
[20:05] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> And the next Dev Show & Tell meeting is already scheduled for March 27. See this page for more details: https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/DSPACE/Janitor+and+DSpace%2C+DSpace+Development+on+Codenvy+-+Mar+27%2C+2018+at+1500+UTC
[20:05] <kompewter> [ Janitor and DSpace, DSpace Development on Codenvy - Mar 27, 2018 at 1500 UTC - DSpace - DuraSpace Wiki ] - https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/DSPACE/Janitor+and+DSpace%2C+DSpace+Development+on+Codenvy+-+Mar+27%2C+2018+at+1500+UTC
[20:06] <DSpaceSlackBot> <mwood> Due to time and technical issues, the Janitor segment was postponed.
[20:06] <DSpaceSlackBot> <terrywbrady> I am pre-scheduling 3 additional meetings. I hope to arrange a session on Docker and then an IDE Showcase
[20:06] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> Excellent. Sounds like a good lineup, and hopefully the awesome attendance continues!
[20:07] <DSpaceSlackBot> <terrywbrady> I need to confirm dates with potential presenters. Here is my brainstorming. https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/DSPACE/DSpace+Developer+Show+and+Tell+Meetings
[20:07] <kompewter> [ DSpace Developer Show and Tell Meetings - DSpace - DuraSpace Wiki ] - https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/DSPACE/DSpace+Developer+Show+and+Tell+Meetings
[20:07] <DSpaceSlackBot> <terrywbrady> @jcreel256 or @jsavell-tamu, if you have something you would like to share, it would be great to add you to a future agenda.
[20:08] <DSpaceSlackBot> <jcreel256> We're just looking for some sprint time over here -
[20:08] <DSpaceSlackBot> <jcreel256> nothing solid from our bosses or customers yet
[20:09] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> Obviously we have lots of great DSpace activities/meetings going on these days. Plenty of ways to participate, and/or just keep up-to-date by watching videos / reading notes.
[20:10] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> On to other agenda topics here. DSpace 7. I don't have a ton to say today on DSpace 7 efforts, other than the usual reminder that the latest status (at a high level) is still being captured on this spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18brPF7cZy_UKyj97Ta44UJg5Z8OwJGi7PLoPJVz-g3g/edit#gid=0
[20:10] <kompewter> [ DSpace 7 Development Planning - Google Sheets ] - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18brPF7cZy_UKyj97Ta44UJg5Z8OwJGi7PLoPJVz-g3g/edit#gid=0
[20:11] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> I'll pause briefly here to see if anyone has questions/comments specific to DSpace 7. The basics are that development is still (obviously) ongoing. It's still going a bit slow from lack of dev resources available. Still working with Steering & other groups to see if we can find more resources
[20:12] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> Ok, no one seems to be typing, so I'll move along. Can always loop back if questions come up
[20:13] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> Next up is 6.x maintenance updates. We still have a list of potential tickets on a 6.3 planning page: https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/DSPACE/DSpace+Release+6.3+Status
[20:13] <kompewter> [ DSpace Release 6.3 Status - DSpace - DuraSpace Wiki ] - https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/DSPACE/DSpace+Release+6.3+Status
[20:13] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> There has been merging of fixes here & there in GitHub. No major movement towards a 6.3 release yet though
[20:14] <DSpaceSlackBot> <terrywbrady> I'll will make my weekly request to find someone to test my PR's related to the REST report tools. Information is described here: https://github.com/terrywbrady/restReportTutorial/blob/master/README.md
[20:14] <kompewter> [ restReportTutorial/README.md at master · terrywbrady/restReportTutorial · GitHub ] - https://github.com/terrywbrady/restReportTutorial/blob/master/README.md
[20:15] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> Oh, once thing I *did* just remember about DSpace 7 (`master` branch). If you missed the emails/Slack announcements, we have new Code Style requirements for DSpace 7: https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/DSPACE/Code+Style+Guide
[20:15] <kompewter> [ Code Style Guide - DSpace - DuraSpace Wiki ] - https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/DSPACE/Code+Style+Guide
[20:15] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> :point_up: I'll update the agenda with that link too. I forgot to add it in
[20:17] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> So, on to the "big topic" on this agenda for today...and it loops back to the DSpace Entities Working Group efforts/meetings
[20:17] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> For those who have not been following along (in meetings, via meeting recordings or on entities-wg channel)...here's a brief summary:
[20:18] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> 1) We've had many many requests for DSpace to be able to manage more than "just" documents/research. Primarily, the ongoing desire from lots of folks to store info about authors (ORCIDs, Researcher Pages, etc)
[20:19] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> 2) Out of that, and lots of CRIS (Current Research Info Systems) out of Europe (see also DSpace-CRIS project), the DSpace Steering Group wanted to dig into options to enhance the DSpace data model to support new types of "entities" (like authors). Hence, the Entities WG was established
[20:19] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> 3) The Entities WG has been analyzing ways to achieve all this...namely looking at two approaches to getting their quickly
[20:20] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> 3a) A "top down" approach, which might involve looking at what DSpace-CRIS has built & is used in production in Europe, and pulling in all or parts into core DSpace to support this.
[20:21] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> 3b) Or a "bottom up" approach, which might involve being inspired by DSpace-CRIS efforts, and _rebuilding_ a more simplistic version of it based on our existing data model
[20:22] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> If you haven't seen much of DSpace-CRIS, more info is at https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/DSPACECRIS/DSpace-CRIS+Home
[20:22] <kompewter> [ DSpace-CRIS Home - DSpace-CRIS - DuraSpace Wiki ] - https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/DSPACECRIS/DSpace-CRIS+Home
[20:22] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> And a demo site at: https://dspace-cris.4science.it/
[20:22] <kompewter> [ Home | DSpace-CRIS DEMO ] - https://dspace-cris.4science.it/
[20:23] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> DSpace-CRIS is currently an "extension" of DSpace. It's a complete copy of the DSpace codebase + datamodel, with major data model enhancements (on the side, in separate tables, etc) to support new Entities -- Authors, Organizations, Projects, etc
[20:24] <DSpaceSlackBot> <jcreel256> we piloted some work here where we adapted the metadata authority values to hold URIs for contributor profile pages
[20:24] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> So...essentially...this has been a discussion going on for months, since late 2018. And, I'm getting the feeling it's starting to get some major push towards a "quick decision" in the next month (maybe months?).
[20:25] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> There is an analysis that RCAAP (from Portugal), which is the team that has been coordinating these Entities WG meetings, has written here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bb83KKLi9Q29OXF59WV5KYepcPPZWtSzpQftTDAjFnk/edit
[20:25] <kompewter> [ DSpace Entities: technical analysis for Entities data model - Google Docs ] - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bb83KKLi9Q29OXF59WV5KYepcPPZWtSzpQftTDAjFnk/edit
[20:26] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> Their view is essentially that they prefer the "bottom up" (or build it ourselves) approach, for the reasons they lay out in that document (and yes, it gets into some of the core data modeling of DSpace-CRIS, so it's not an easy skim)
[20:26] <DSpaceSlackBot> <terrywbrady> Thanks for the summary. It sounds like 3A provides some very specific out of the box solutions that would be very applicable in Europe. 3B sounds like a more generic approach that is perhaps more consistent with the current data model but less out of the box.
[20:26] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> But, I'm wanting to find a way to get more opinions / eyes into this.
[20:27] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> (As I'm not completely sold on this "re-build it ourselves" direction...considering DSpace-CRIS exists, and is a production quality system used by many institutions in Europe)
[20:28] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> But, my opinions aside, I'm basically looking for more ways to gather feedback / how to get others up-to-speed enough here to provide more feedback
[20:29] <DSpaceSlackBot> <mwood> I would like to hear from 4Science about why it was done that way. The people we needed to ask were unable to attend. That JDYNAwhateveritis table gives me the creeps.
[20:30] <DSpaceSlackBot> <mwood> One thing I will note is that some of these entities are just roles. A submitter, a subscriber, and an author might all be the same person.
[20:30] <DSpaceSlackBot> <terrywbrady> I presume an attractive benefit of 3A is that it has the potential to attract greater adoption from folks looking for that out of the box experience. I am unclear how adaptable the 3A approach is to other generic problems. We use DSpace for digital collections and often have need to describe an "entity". We often accomplish this by replicating the same metadata to multiple items that are retrieved by a
[20:30] <DSpaceSlackBot> <mwood> Ditto project manager, team member, etc.
[20:31] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> @mwood: you are talking about the JDYNA_VALUES table which has a lot of `null` values. While I haven't heard from @bollini directly, Claudio from 4Science noted that it is a non-normalized table cause that provided better performance (in their testing). See this comment in that analysis doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bb83KKLi9Q29OXF59WV5KYepcPPZWtSzpQftTDAjFnk/edit?disco=AAAABoOk5k0
[20:31] <kompewter> [ DSpace Entities: technical analysis for Entities data model - Google Docs ] - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bb83KKLi9Q29OXF59WV5KYepcPPZWtSzpQftTDAjFnk/edit?disco=AAAABoOk5k0
[20:32] <DSpaceSlackBot> <kshepherd> hi all
[20:33] <DSpaceSlackBot> <kshepherd> sorry, conflicting meetings
[20:33] <DSpaceSlackBot> <terrywbrady> hello @kshepherd
[20:33] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> @terrywbrady: DSpace-CRIS provides 3 out-of-the-box Entities: Researcher Page (i.e. Author profile), Organizational Unit (i.e. allows for Org structure), and Project (i.e. research project, grant, etc).
[20:33] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> @terrywbrady: but DSpace-CRIS also has a "dynamic entity object", which is a create-your-own-entity, essentially
[20:34] <DSpaceSlackBot> <terrywbrady> I am glad to know that is included
[20:35] <DSpaceSlackBot> <terrywbrady> I feel like we are treading water with all the 6.3 changes and the 7.0 work, so it is difficult to also feel urgency around the entity proposal.
[20:35] <DSpaceSlackBot> <mwood> You probably don't want to hear this, but thinking about this and other issues is making me think that the relational model is not optimal for DSpace. Something like a graph model might be more suitable. But that work would be out-of-scope. (I think I stumbled on an attempt to put a graph database under DSpace some years ago. Lost the pointer, sorry.)
[20:36] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> There are a few other things that DSpace-CRIS has that DSpace doesn't, just to get a complete picture here:
[20:36] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> * Full ORCID support (login via ORCID, claim your ORCID profile, send data to/from ORCID via your DSpace-CRIS profile)
[20:37] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> * Support for Signposting: http://signposting.org/
[20:37] <kompewter> [ Signposting the Scholarly Web ] - http://signposting.org/
[20:38] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> * Support for some limited "nested" metadata: https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/DSPACECRIS/Nested+metadata+in+DSpace+items
[20:38] <kompewter> [ Nested metadata in DSpace items - DSpace-CRIS - DuraSpace Wiki ] - https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/DSPACECRIS/Nested+metadata+in+DSpace+items
[20:39] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> * Support for capturing metrics from Scopus / Web of Science as "statistics" in the repo. See for example on the demo site: https://dspace-cris.4science.it/handle/123456789/103
[20:39] <kompewter> [ European Union Population | DSpace-CRIS DEMO ] - https://dspace-cris.4science.it/handle/123456789/103
[20:39] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> (Look at the right side)
[20:40] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> A lot of these things could come back into DSpace at some point. But, it does beg the question still of...do we try and "rebuild this"?... do we think about trying to adopt what they have (to some extent) and enhance it? And even, Is this a general direction that folks want to see out of DSpace?
[20:41] <DSpaceSlackBot> <mwood> Do we have a list of entity types that we want to support?
[20:42] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> @mwood: the basics (that I've heard requested) would be Authors (i.e. Researcher Pages) and Organizations (Organizational Units). Both of which are in DSpace-CRIS. But, obviously DSpace-CRIS has much more than that
[20:42] <DSpaceSlackBot> <kshepherd> some things that people really want (i think!) like tighter ORCID integration require at least 'people' entities to work properly
[20:43] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> Yes, @kshepherd is correct...for us to fully support ORCID, we'd *need* People/Authors/Researcher Pages. That's the reason our ORCID integration is currently very limited
[20:44] <DSpaceSlackBot> <terrywbrady> I could imagine making use of several of the features that you have mentioned (ORCID, Signpost, etc). If the integration of DSpace-CRIS will lead to more adoption (and more contributors) then it sounds like there are some useful additions of functionality.
[20:45] <DSpaceSlackBot> <kshepherd> brb
[20:45] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> I'm realizing the time is short-ish here. I'm also honestly curious from those here...how can I better inform you of this? How can you get to a place where you feel you could provide feedback into this effort? I'd like to hear more voices here, as this is potentially an important step/change in what DSpace "is"
[20:45] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> (And defining what DSpace "is" is not just a role for Steering...it's also a roll for Committers, DCAT, etc etc)
[20:46] <DSpaceSlackBot> <terrywbrady> Could the 2 approaches that you describe be presented to a forum of DSpace tech folks to ask questions and understand the implications?
[20:46] <DSpaceSlackBot> <terrywbrady> It would be great to hear the arguments for/against each approach.
[20:47] <DSpaceSlackBot> <terrywbrady> I imagine that a similar meeting might be desired for the DCAT folks, but I think the conversation would be different.
[20:48] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> @terrywbrady: yes, I think we could do that. Some of those arguments are in the Google Doc I linked to. The "against going with DSpace-CRIS" is basically that the DSpace-CRIS data model is perceived as a bit "odd" in places, and possibly "too complex". The "for going with DSpace-CRIS" is basically that the system has what we need (and more), and is in production in many European institutions.
[20:49] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> Those are very basic arguments though ;) But, we could talk through that in more detail either way
[20:50] <DSpaceSlackBot> <mwood> We *could* adopt bits of DSpace-CRIS now and rework the guts later if we really hate how something works.
[20:50] <DSpaceSlackBot> <terrywbrady> I get that from skimming the document, but I feel like I could be convinced of either approach with some conversation. I also feel like we are so busy in the current work that none if this is likely to happen for 2-3 years.
[20:50] <DSpaceSlackBot> <mwood> Entities isn't going to be deliverable until DSpace 8 at the earliest, I think.
[20:51] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> @mwood: i've had those same thoughts...it's basically "which end do you start at"... do we start complex (DSpace-CRIS) and look to simplify / clean up what needs it. Or do we start with what we have (DSpace) and look to enhance it / make it more complex to support this.
[20:52] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> Another "wrench" here, per timelines...is there are some institutions that have told me (in private as of yet, nothing public quite yet), that they have dev resources to help make this happen "more quickly", but only if we are willing to also do so
[20:53] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> I.e. If we all come together and decide "yes we want this"...the resources *might* just figure themselves out to make this possible in a much shorter span of time
[20:53] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> But, that's a lot of "ifs" there still
[20:53] <DSpaceSlackBot> <terrywbrady> Is their offer for DSpace 7 or 8?
[20:53] <DSpaceSlackBot> <mwood> One thing that came out during the meeting is that a chunk of the DSpace-CRIS complexity is to deal with GUIfied configuration of the GUI, which would probably require major rework for DSpace 7 and is out-of-scope for Entities.
[20:54] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> DSpace 7, potentially
[20:55] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> So, the reason I'm bringing this all up as a big deal is I'm essentially being told... we can possibly help you speed up DSpace 7, if you can provide this as part of DSpace 7. Whether this idea will "pan out", I'm not sure...
[20:55] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> and we still haven't actually decided on a *direction* here...so, it's hard to resource an "idea"
[20:57] <DSpaceSlackBot> <kshepherd> re: ways to inform / get involved, i'd be keen on some big old mailing list discussions with references to web resources/pages, that works pretty well for me i think
[20:57] <DSpaceSlackBot> <terrywbrady> It sounds like a decision needs to be made based on private information. If the potential/promise is really significant, I imagine the technical community could suggest a preferred approach between the 2. But, it feels like a significant increase in scope for DSpace 7.
[20:58] <DSpaceSlackBot> <mwood> It is an increase in scope for DSpace 7, but if there are enough hands to form a second team, then it's not an increase in scope for New UI.
[20:59] <DSpaceSlackBot> <mwood> Actually, third: New UI, REST, Entities.
[20:59] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> @terrywbrady: not exactly. The information is only "private" cause it literally came my way on Friday. I'm still trying to wrap my head around (a) Is this even doable (drastic increase in scope is correct), and (b) could we make this happen "easier" (if we look to DSpace-CRIS for some/much of the underlying modeling/code).
[21:00] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> This will all be discussed with Steering too in an upcoming meeting...I'm just trying to get this to you all *immediately*, and that unfortunately means discussions are a bit "in progress"
[21:00] <DSpaceSlackBot> <mwood> Thank you.
[21:01] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> @kshepherd: that sounds very doable to bring this to an email thread on dspace-devel. Good idea
[21:01] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> I can always pull from the notes here, draft that up, and kickstart it. Hopefullly you all will help me keep that moving, add in questions/feedback , etc
[21:03] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> So, thanks for the discussion here. I'm realizing we are over time. But, I think I got a basic direction for moving this forward (on email list). We can also then decide if we want to schedule a Zoom meeting (or multiple for separate time zones) to actually talk through
[21:04] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> But, I'll leave the final decision on Zoom meetings to that email thread...we can see if that's what you all (and others) actually want...or if this is doable via email
[21:05] <DSpaceSlackBot> <tdonohue> That wraps up the meeting for today! I'm going to take a break, but will be back shortly...and will try and get a discussion thread started either later today or tomorrow morning (for me)
[22:03] * mhwood (~mhwood@mhw.ulib.iupui.edu) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[22:32] * tdonohue (~tdonohue@dspace/tdonohue) has left #duraspace

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