#duraspace IRC Log


IRC Log for 2012-11-08

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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[6:50] * Topic is '[Welcome to DuraSpace - This channel is logged - http://irclogs.duraspace.org/]'
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[14:01] <eddies> https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/FCREPO/2012-11-08+-+Fedora+Committer+Meeting
[14:01] <kompewter> [ 2012-11-08 - Fedora Committer Meeting - Fedora Repository Development - DuraSpace Wiki ] - https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/FCREPO/2012-11-08+-+Fedora+Committer+Meeting
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[14:03] <fasseg> it seems im unable to connect again to the conference line
[14:03] <fasseg> dan? can I ask you to bring em in again?
[14:03] <fasseg> *me
[14:05] <ajs6f> Eddie: There are problems with Java 7 and ActiveMQ from pre-5.7.0
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[14:11] <ajs6f> Looks like an upgrade to Fedora's ActiveMQ library would solve the problem.
[14:11] <ben_home> Am I the only one getting a busy signal from conf line?
[14:11] <ajs6f> Ed, Eddie, Dan, and Adam got in— Frank had to get Dan to conference-Skype him.
[14:12] <ajs6f> Maybe he should pick up you, too?
[14:12] * ben_home shrugs
[14:13] <Dan_Davis> Ben: I don't see your Skype online
[14:13] <ben_home> ok, got on
[14:13] <ajs6f> https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/FEDORA36/Fedora+3.6.2+Release+Notes
[14:13] <kompewter> [ Log In - DuraSpace Wiki ] - https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/FEDORA36/Fedora+3.6.2+Release+Notes
[14:14] <ajs6f> Question raised: how extensive must testing be for the micro release 3.6.2?
[14:14] <ajs6f> Particulary, with regard to changes to FESL.
[14:19] <ajs6f> It seems that several of the bug fixes could be tested by the submtters of the original issues.
[14:23] <ajs6f> I got dropped from the call. I don't know if you heard my suggestion: no extensive platform testing (no Windows, no Oracle), and we wait util Tuesday to ehar back from Dave Lacy and others who submitted issues as to whether they can do testing.
[14:23] <ajs6f> Looks like Skype is hosed for me. I'll be back via phone in a few.
[14:25] <ajs6f> Actually, Dan, can you pull me in too
[14:25] <ajs6f> ?
[14:26] <ajs6f> And I'm back!
[14:26] <ajs6f> Thanks, Dan.
[14:27] <ben_home> http://groboutils.sourceforge.net/
[14:27] <kompewter> [ GroboUtils - GroboUtils Home Page ] - http://groboutils.sourceforge.net/
[14:29] <ajs6f> Eddie: How to do integration tests in light of contributed patches, particularly recent discussions about multithreading problem and proffered code.
[14:30] <ajs6f> Dan: Not good to do performance testing in the cloud— you get untrustable numbers.
[14:30] <ben_home> this might be useful: http://www.checkthread.org/index.html
[14:30] <kompewter> [ CheckThread.org ] - http://www.checkthread.org/index.html
[14:31] * cbeer (cbeer@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:a498) has joined #duraspace
[14:31] <ajs6f> Switching gears to Fedora Futures…
[14:35] <ajs6f> Eddie: Suggestion to move meeting forward one hour, to 10:30 Eastern.
[14:35] <ajs6f> [General delight]
[14:36] <ajs6f> Next meeting will move forward one hour.
[14:36] <ajs6f> Eddie: Task for team before CNI...
[14:36] <ajs6f> Eddie: is to do a prelim assessment (for implementation) of...
[14:37] <ajs6f> Eddie: Two possible approaches for FF phase 2.
[14:37] <ajs6f> Eddie: Iterative improvement? Or "greenfield"?
[14:38] <ajs6f> Eddie: We need to be able to provide FF Steering good guidance as to these alternatives.
[14:38] <ajs6f> Adam: Claims that these aren't stark alternatives— there's a spectrum in between.
[14:39] <cbeer> DAMS
[14:39] <ajs6f> Bess: What about starting with UCSD's DAMS?
[14:39] <ajs6f> Bess: Hasn't looked at code, but heard it described as "Fedora-light".
[14:39] <ben_home> DAMS: http://libraries.ucsd.edu/about/digital-library/index.html
[14:39] <kompewter> [ Digital Library Program - The Library ] - http://libraries.ucsd.edu/about/digital-library/index.html
[14:40] <ajs6f> Eddie: "Greenfield" doesn't mean start from nothing, just not starting from current codebase.
[14:40] <ajs6f> Eddie: "greenfield" seems most likely (to Eddie) to mean either building from Oxford's pair-tree approach, or perhaps DAMS.
[14:41] <ajs6f> Eddie: Hears that DAMS is very "ptototypey".
[14:41] <ajs6f> Eddie: Plenty of other content-management tools out there as well.
[14:42] <eddies> http://www.dataflow.ox.ac.uk/index.php/about/about-databank
[14:42] <kompewter> [ About DataBank ] - http://www.dataflow.ox.ac.uk/index.php/about/about-databank
[14:42] <ben_home> thanks eddies
[14:43] <ajs6f> Adam: Gets snippy about not having use cases and intentions in hand before talking about tooling and platforms.
[14:43] <ajs6f> Eddie: Has received use cases and consolidated them in Confluence.
[14:44] <ajs6f> Eddie: Picking certain use cases _doesn't_ mean we discard others.
[14:44] <ajs6f> Eddie: But we need tight focus for phase 2 (four months).
[14:44] <ajs6f> Eddie: What we do first isn't necessarily gong to be what's best for the long term/
[14:44] <ajs6f> .
[14:45] <ajs6f> Eddie: It's what we're going to be able to present in July as what we've accomplished, and it should reignite the religious fervor of the Fedora community.
[14:45] <ajs6f> Eddie: We need to solve a visible problem.
[14:45] <ajs6f> Eddie: Problems that are visible to people like ULs and others in the large community. Not necessarily gearheads.
[14:46] <ajs6f> Eddie: The larger community's opinions, desires have to inform our choice of use case.
[14:46] <ajs6f> Eddie: First question: who the hell are our customers?
[14:47] <ajs6f> Eddie: If we don't know who our customers are, we can't solve their problems.
[14:47] <ajs6f> Eddie: Synthesized use cases based on a view through a lens made of customers.
[14:48] <ben_home> http://www.stanford.edu/group/e145/cgi-bin/winter/drupal/upload/handouts/Four_Steps.pdf
[14:48] <ajs6f> Eddie: Who has read "The Lean Startup" or Stephen Blank's "Four Steps to the Epiphany".
[14:48] <ben_home> ^ that was four steps to the epiphany
[14:48] <eddies> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_Startup
[14:48] <kompewter> [ Lean Startup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_Startup
[14:48] <ajs6f> [general silence]
[14:48] <ajs6f> Bess: Worth reading?
[14:48] <ajs6f> Eddie: Yep.
[14:49] <ajs6f> Eddie: Would help with understanding the rationale of our approach.
[14:49] <ajs6f> Eddie; And it's not long.
[14:49] <eddies> grr
[14:50] <ajs6f> Eddie: [drops off call]
[14:50] <ajs6f> Dan rescues Eddie.
[14:51] <ajs6f> Eddie: Lean Startup sez: most startups fail.
[14:51] <eddies> dropped
[14:51] <ajs6f> Eddie: LS sez: Look at lean manufacturing (Toyota, e.g.)
[14:51] <ajs6f> Eddie: LS sez: the real core of a startup is to build a sustainable business.
[14:52] <ajs6f> Eddie: LS sez: apply the scientific method to your work. Have testable hypotheses. E.g. "I thikn that Fedora's customer's will respond well to feature X."
[14:52] <ajs6f> Eddie: LS sez: and put it in front of customers ASAP.
[14:53] <ajs6f> Eddie: LS sez: gives example of long wasted effort bulding a feature no one wanted.
[14:53] <ajs6f> Eddie: LS sez: have small testable hypotheses.
[14:53] <ajs6f> Eddie: and who your customer is— that's a hypothesis too!
[14:55] <ben_home> violent agreement
[14:55] <ajs6f> Adam: Let's not fail to learn from our common experience— not everything needs to be tested.
[14:56] <ajs6f> Eddie: Good example of something that seemed to be obvious: dynamic disseminations.
[14:56] <ajs6f> Eddie: too much time spent building that apparatus as compared with its use.
[14:57] <ajs6f> Eddie: Given our tight timeframe, we need turn ideas into products quickly and test them.
[14:57] <ajs6f> Eddie: We need an efficient feedback loop.
[14:57] <ajs6f> Eddie: There's a significant customer base (represented in this group) in the Hydra/Islandora communities.
[14:58] <ajs6f> Eddie: And they could be part of whom we test against.
[14:58] <ajs6f> Eddie: E.g. " a data research needs to deposit whatever whatever whatever"
[14:58] <ajs6f> Eddie: but it might turn out that the Hydra developer building for that researcher is actually the customer.
[14:59] <ajs6f> Bess; Sounds like Eddie has been immersed in the stores that have been contributed: What do you think about what we need to do?
[14:59] <ajs6f> Eddie: Research data management.
[14:59] <ajs6f> Eddie: Fedora doesn't do that well today.
[15:00] <ajs6f> Eddie: Also better mechanisms for storage.
[15:00] <ajs6f> Eddie: Like Adam's story, which picks up a theme from Fedora 4— policy controlled storage.
[15:00] <ajs6f> Adam: Whines, is slapped down hard.
[15:01] <ajs6f> Eddie: Research data management + better control of storage could be a winner.
[15:01] <ajs6f> Eddie: "Fedora needs to be horizontally scalable.": too broad.
[15:02] <ajs6f> Eddie: Not enough time before July 1st.
[15:02] <ben_home> Eddie: "And it sucks."
[15:02] <ajs6f> Eddie: Isn't going to sell.
[15:02] <ajs6f> Eddie: Policy-enabled storage might resonate better.
[15:03] <ajs6f> Eddie: There's a higher-level contract that can be depoyed.
[15:03] <ajs6f> Eddie: And allows libraries to do cost recovery.
[15:03] <ajs6f> Eddie: Ain't another CMS that does that.
[15:04] <ajs6f> Eddie: Research datat management is where the money is at.
[15:04] <ajs6f> Eddie: There are whole institutions (e.g. eSciDoc) that exist for that.
[15:04] <ajs6f> Eddie: Summarizes himself very well.
[15:05] <ben_home> Naomi: +1 policy-based storage
[15:05] <ajs6f> Bess; Policy-based storage: a pain point for many, including Stanford.
[15:05] <ben_home> That was Bess?
[15:06] <ajs6f> Bess— still there?
[15:06] <cbeer> ben_home: yes. Tired Bess sounds similar to Tired Naomi
[15:06] <ben_home> Tired Bess sounds like Naomi
[15:06] <ben_home> cbeer++
[15:06] <ajs6f> Eddie: From say, Week 2, we ought to have early adopters along for the ride.
[15:06] <ajs6f> Eddie: Even we just offer them example APIs.
[15:07] <ajs6f> Eddie: We could give early adopters an EC2 instance black-box where they can bang on the drum.
[15:07] <ajs6f> Eddie: If they are happy, we're doing a good job.
[15:08] <ajs6f> adam: I hate developers and I don't want to hear from them.
[15:08] <ajs6f> Eddie: We dn't want to invent a hypothetical customer who turns out to not exist.
[15:08] <ajs6f> Eddie: That's what happened to DSpace2.
[15:09] <ajs6f> Adam: Jut want to include plenty of voices beyond the development community for early adoption.
[15:09] <ajs6f> Eddie: Repo managers aren't great voices for early adopter feedback.
[15:10] <ajs6f> Eddie: But other folks get to be heard, just perhaps not as early adopters.
[15:10] <ajs6f> Jonathan: Devs from Hydra or Islandora will hopefully speak on behalf of their repo managers, etc.
[15:11] <ajs6f> Bess: Feels that Hydra devs are in pretty good touch with what further-back customers want.
[15:11] <ajs6f> Bess: we (hydra) have a very well defined use case.
[15:11] <ajs6f> Bess: Our researchers want to keep getting their money.
[15:12] <ajs6f> Bess: and NSF has very carefully defined requirements for a trusted repository.
[15:12] <ajs6f> Bess: Is research data a good enough use case?
[15:12] <ajs6f> Adam: No, too nig.
[15:12] <ajs6f> s/nig/big/
[15:12] <kompewter> ajs6f meant to say: Adam: No, too big.
[15:13] <ajs6f> Ben: Whatever comes out of this should make it easy to build a reop management interface that fulfils the data security requirements of the NSF.
[15:13] <ajs6f> s/reop/repo
[15:13] <kompewter> ajs6f meant to say: Ben: Whatever comes out of this should make it easy to build a repo management interface that fulfils the data security requirements of the NSF.
[15:14] <ajs6f> Bess: Dont really need to read the NSF guidelines out loud to each toher.
[15:14] <ajs6f> Eddie: My continuing challenge is to build up the use case(s) and customer profiles.
[15:15] <ajs6f> Ben: Adam is wrong, wrong, wrong.
[15:15] <cbeer> for those of us not deep into the NSF guidelines, anyone have a good overview?
[15:15] <ajs6f> Ben: There aren't that many customers that are really Fedora customers.
[15:16] <ajs6f> Eddie: Come Jul 1st, there ought to be prototype developments on top of our prototype.
[15:17] <ben_home> eddies you went away for a few seconds there
[15:18] <ajs6f> Adam: We need to make sure we know what we all mean by different names for customer-types, e.g. "repo manager".
[15:19] <ajs6f> Eddie: We need to change direction with as little waste as possible.
[15:19] <ajs6f> Eddie— I'm getting about half or less of your verbiage.
[15:20] <ajs6f> Eddie: We may choose the wrong customer at first, but we have to spend the least amount of effort possible if we have to change direction.
[15:21] <ajs6f> Eddie: Hard for people knee-deep in agile methodology to get through some scrum cycles and then realize that they're justplain wrong about fundamental assumptions.
[15:22] <ajs6f> Eddie: We need to do enough upfront analysis, but accept that it's just a provisional statement.
[15:22] <ajs6f> Bess: Can we decide that our initial ustomers are hydra/islandora/esciedoc developers?
[15:22] <ajs6f> Bess: I think we can.
[15:22] <ajs6f> Eddie: Yes.
[15:24] <ajs6f> Adam: Rants on and on about the difference between people at the FF Steering group and the developers who work for them.
[15:24] <ajs6f> Dan Davis: Customers can rarely tell you what they want.
[15:24] <ajs6f> Dan: Developers can tell you at most that they want to use something.
[15:25] <ajs6f> Eddie: That's why it's so important to get feedback via actual activitiy. (E.g. use of a prototype.)
[15:25] <ajs6f> Eddie: We're not asking the customers to tell us what they want the the product to be.
[15:25] <ajs6f> Eddie: We have a vision of what the product is.
[15:26] <ajs6f> Eddie: We them figure out what the customer will accept.
[15:26] <ajs6f> s/them/then
[15:26] <kompewter> ajs6f meant to say: Eddie: We then figure out what the customer will accept.
[15:26] <ajs6f> Eddie: Will people buy shoes on line?
[15:26] <ajs6f> Eddie: Don't start finding out by building warehouses.
[15:27] <ajs6f> Eddie: We're not going to poll customers for features. We're just validating with our customers that they will accept a given concrete version of our vision.
[15:28] <ajs6f> Eddie: We have ideas about The Graph, Durability, etc.
[15:28] <ajs6f> Eddie: Lots of people are always talking big about format migration.
[15:28] <ajs6f> Eddie: But that's a big red herring.
[15:28] <ajs6f> Eddie: Peple always _talk_ about it, but no one actually uses it.
[15:29] <ajs6f> Eddie: We can't measur success by how many people are downloading or installig Fedora.
[15:29] <ajs6f> Eddie: We measure success by how many people integrate Fedora into their systems.
[15:30] <ajs6f> Bess: Do we have action items? Things we can do?
[15:30] <ajs6f> Adam: How can we help Eddie with the synthesis work?
[15:31] <ajs6f> Eddie: You can help iron out what we mean by possible customers, customers Fedora has.
[15:31] <ajs6f> Eddie: We are trying to build a sustainable business.
[15:32] <ajs6f> Eddie: We have to look forward to a phase 3, post June, and when we go mainstream (major label record contract?)
[15:32] <ajs6f> Eddie: Anything that can help us get a better uunderstanding of our potential customers and their potential problems.
[15:33] <ajs6f> Eddie: I don't much about Islandora or eScieDoc.
[15:33] <ajs6f> Frank: Neither do it.
[15:33] <ajs6f> Eddie: That's okay.
[15:34] <ajs6f> Eddie: Everyone should be reading over the use cases, commenting, etc.
[15:34] <ajs6f> Jpnathan: What do you need to know about Islandora?
[15:34] <ajs6f> Eddie: How is Islandora a customer of the Fedora community?
[15:35] <ajs6f> Eddie: How about a few sentences about a typical Islandora developer?
[15:35] <ajs6f> Eddie: Concrete things to spend cycles on:
[15:35] <ajs6f> Eddie: Issue tracking machinery? What's up with that?
[15:35] <ajs6f> Eddie: Which tool to use?
[15:36] <ajs6f> Eddie: Jira: the devil we know.
[15:36] <ajs6f> Eddie: Please try both tools and give feedback.
[15:36] <ajs6f> Eddie: Duraspace probably shouldn't be running their own Jira and COnfluence. And we probably wouldn't.
[15:37] <ajs6f> Bess: Everyone go over the use cases and clarify them in our minds, and try out the issues trackers.
[15:38] <ajs6f> Eddie: if we decide to use some new platform on which to development, take a look at Databank (see link above).
[15:39] <ajs6f> Eddie: ben O'Steen may be part of this project.
[15:39] <ajs6f> Eddie: And I'm late.
[15:40] <ajs6f> Eddie: The post-CNI meeting.
[15:40] <ajs6f> !
[15:40] <ajs6f> Eddie: Tuesday afternoon, schmooze with interested parties at CNI.
[15:40] <ajs6f> Eddie: Wednesday, tech and steering together in the morning, tech alone in the afternoon.
[15:42] <ajs6f> Eddie: This project feel s a littel understaffed.
[15:43] <ajs6f> Eddie: We need someone within the group to act as scrummaster.
[15:43] <ajs6f> Eddie: Project manager could come from within this group, or maybe from outside.
[15:44] <eddies> https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/REPONEXT/CNI+Tech+Meeting+Agenda
[15:44] <kompewter> [ Log In - DuraSpace Wiki ] - https://wiki.duraspace.org/display/REPONEXT/CNI+Tech+Meeting+Agenda
[15:44] * mdiggory (~mdiggory@ip72-199-216-7.sd.sd.cox.net) Quit (Quit: mdiggory)
[15:45] <ajs6f> Eddie: Thursday and Friday, doing stories, making use of face-to-face time.
[15:46] <ben_home> have to jump off
[15:46] <ajs6f> Eddie: Be there or be square!
[15:47] <ajs6f> Reminder: next week we meet at 10:30AM easterm!
[15:47] <ajs6f> Eddie: Bye-bye.
[15:47] * fasseg (~fas@HSI-KBW-078-043-007-220.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[15:47] <ajs6f> General: Bye-bye.
[15:49] <ben_home> eddies: I'm told I should already be "25-50%" on FF, so pls let me know if there's specific tasks I can help with
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